Internal engine mods

Post here on any modifications you have done, or have found for the Kawi

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07red650
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Internal engine mods

Postby 07red650 » Mon Mar 02, 2009 2:07 am

Aside from Gary, has anybody done any internal engine work to their Ninja650? I've ported and polished a few 1000cc and 600cc 4-cyl. heads at the performance shop I used to work at, but they were just mail orders and we never saw the bikes they went on. The owner of the shop wasnt exactly an honest guy, and would tell customers pretty much anything to make a buck. (Which was one of the major reasons I left.) The engine shop that builds the motors for our dirt-track cars has ported a set or 2 of Harley heads before, but again, never saw the bikes so who knows if it was worth very much power on the dyno. They flowed a little better on the flow bench, but that doesn't always mean the engine will make more power. I doubt that shaving the heads a bit to up the compression would be a very good idea for the street, since the comp. ratio is already a hair over 11. 11.3 to 1 is it? BRP, does the Versys cam swap work well on the street as well, or is that better left for the track? While I'm not familiar with all the details of our engine yet, I'm fairly confident that I'll have no problem with head removal and reinstall as long as I have the service manual handy for the specs. If all it takes is some of my time to gain some decent power, I'm ok with that. After all, its not going to be good riding weather anytime soon in western PA... :thumbdown:

2007 Ninja 650R - Passion Red
Mods so far:
Custom muffler, DNA air filter, airbox baffles removed, reflective wheel stripes, Woodcraft spools, custom chain guard

Still on the wish list:
Ermax undertail, Ermax rear hugger, frame sliders, Hindle Header
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BRP
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Re: Internal engine mods

Postby BRP » Mon Mar 02, 2009 2:19 pm

The majority of the power to be gained is in the head.
You could simply open both intake and exhaust ports, and match the intake boots, and gain a few hp. The Versys can will have no ill effects on street riding.
I'm also adding hd vavle springs and retainers to the Engine area, along with a few other goodies.
You could mill the head some, but you would have to run 93 octane.
With a slip-on, and those mods, you could gain an easy 8 hp , and still have a very street able bike.
95Racer
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Re: Internal engine mods

Postby 95Racer » Mon Mar 02, 2009 3:57 pm

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Last edited by 95Racer on Sat Apr 04, 2009 2:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
djrussell
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Re: Internal engine mods

Postby djrussell » Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:57 pm

that is uber-sweet. :cool

there's a typo at the top of your webpage though. what's "race dairy?"
95Racer
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Re: Internal engine mods

Postby 95Racer » Tue Mar 03, 2009 1:43 am

Ah, cheers, DJ. Now fixed.
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cefoskey
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Re: Internal engine mods

Postby cefoskey » Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:41 am

*deleted*

found the pics!
Image Image
06 Ninja 650RS SOLD | 06 Daytona 675
greenblur
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Re: Internal engine mods

Postby greenblur » Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:06 pm

What's the advantage of a Versys Cam, I thought the only difference between the motors was gear ratio?
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Polestar
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Re: Internal engine mods

Postby Polestar » Wed Mar 04, 2009 9:43 am

Ninja 650R engine making over 95HP


Good reading. Who knew our little twin had such potential.
Hooah!
07red650
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Re: Internal engine mods

Postby 07red650 » Wed Mar 04, 2009 1:02 pm

Wow, some good info for sure. Sounds like I may do a combination of the 2 projects. Here are my thoughs and questions on your replies...

BRP wrote:The majority of the power to be gained is in the head. You could simply open both intake and exhaust ports, and match the intake boots, and gain a few hp. The Versys cam will have no ill effects on street riding. I'm also adding hd valve springs and retainers to the Engine area, along with a few other goodies. You could mill the head some, but you would have to run 93 octane. With a slip-on, and those mods, you could gain an easy 8 hp , and still have a very street able bike.


Glad to hear that a port match and some smoothing up will make a noticable difference. I probably wouldn't have done it if I had to really open them up. Don't want to risk cutting into a water jacket on a bike I'm still paying for. Haha. Do you know if the porting helps the whole power curve or just a specific area? Is the Versys cam better over all, or is it better in 1 area? (What exactly is the difference in cams? Lift? Duration? Or just a totally different profile?) I don't know what the stock power curve looks like, since the local bike dyno was down and waiting on parts in the fall. Haven't called them back in a while. How much heavier are the HD springs? Do they solve the bounce, or just reduce it? (I'm guessing thats the problem you're trying to eliminate...?) What about a set of Ti valves and/or retainers? I'm not sure if I want to increase the compression any because of the octane bump. Hi-test around here is usually 91, so I wanted to stay at or under that. Sunoco has Ultra 93 or 94, but those can be hard to find sometimes. I'm just trying to make a little more power by making the engine more efficient. not nessicarily by making the parts work harder. Not yet anyhow, maybe next winter... :lol:

2007 Ninja 650R - Passion Red
Mods so far:
Custom muffler, DNA air filter, airbox baffles removed, reflective wheel stripes, Woodcraft spools, custom chain guard

Still on the wish list:
Ermax undertail, Ermax rear hugger, frame sliders, Hindle Header
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Simon
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Location: Denmark

Re: Internal engine mods

Postby Simon » Wed Mar 04, 2009 2:10 pm

95Racer wrote:3upracing.co.uk/blogs
Holy mackerel! That crank shaft is both a piece of art and jewellery! Nice...
Image
95Racer
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Re: Internal engine mods

Postby 95Racer » Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:10 pm

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07red650
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Re: Internal engine mods

Postby 07red650 » Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:37 pm

95Racer wrote:It all depends what you accept as a streetable engine...Raising the compression ratio to say 12.5:1 isn't going to make the bike less streetable. Hugely agressive cams will. An easy way to raise compression ratio to right around 12:1 is to remove the cylinder base gasket...

...the stock valve springs will quickly become a limiting factor. They are pretty soft.

My recommendation for a tuned street engine would be to blue print it, lighten and balance the crankshaft, lighten the flywheel, raise compression ratio, bore the TB, install reground cams, stiffer valve springs, clean up the piston crowns, and do lots of work on the head...

...None of the aftermarket systems are anywhere near good enough for a tuned motor.


Wow, thats an awesome motor build. 95hp out of our twins is pretty impressive, but thats way more work than I want to get into. At least right now anyhow... Haha. Streetable wasn't really the right word to use. I wanted to get a little more power but still be able to run on pump gas. I run 87 in it now, unless its a pretty hot day then I put some 89 in to be safe. I don't want to be running 91 or 93 all the time and have to worry about it detonationg when its hot. If raising the compression enough to gain any power requires running 93 then I dont know that I'll do it. Of course, I don't know how much BRP shaves the heads, and I don't know how thick the base gaskets are, so it's hard to say. As for balancing and lightening the rotating assembly, I think thats a bit more work than I can justify right now. I agree 100% that it's a good thing to do on a performance build. We have our dirt-car race motors built that way. Lets it rev quicker and helps with vibrations, no doubt. On top of that, shaved and polished cranks look bad-ass! I may end up lightening the flywheel a bit if 1)- I have the time, and 2)- you can remove it threw the side cover. I know you can do that on some bikes but like I said, I'm not familiar with all the details of the 650 yet. (Can you do that? If so, is it a bitch or not too bad?) Both you and BRP have said better springs and I'm probably going to throw a set of those in after I get done with the porting and valve job. Any reccomendation on brand?

Thanks a lot for all of the info. I have your blog bookmarked and I will be sure to check it often. I think your build is just a bit more serious than what I was planning on though! Haha. Regardless, a lot of the mods can be used trickle-down style on my/our street rides (and budgets!) to get a little more power out of the Ninja.
95Racer
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Re: Internal engine mods

Postby 95Racer » Wed Mar 04, 2009 4:00 pm

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tribulation138
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Re: Internal engine mods

Postby tribulation138 » Wed Mar 04, 2009 5:47 pm

i wish our bike already came stock 95 hp.. that would be sic!!
I have to many mods to post here.
KyleKos
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Re: Internal engine mods

Postby KyleKos » Wed Mar 04, 2009 7:01 pm

tribulation138 wrote:i wish our bike already came stock 95 hp.. that would be sic!!


Lol true, but then it would just be a ZX6R then wouldn't it?
djrussell
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Re: Internal engine mods

Postby djrussell » Wed Mar 04, 2009 7:40 pm

KyleKos wrote:Lol true, but then it would just be a ZX6R then wouldn't it?


i'd be really interested to see the power curve though. 95racer?
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tribulation138
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Re: Internal engine mods

Postby tribulation138 » Wed Mar 04, 2009 8:22 pm

KyleKos wrote:
tribulation138 wrote:i wish our bike already came stock 95 hp.. that would be sic!!


Lol true, but then it would just be a ZX6R then wouldn't it?



yes but with a twin motor not a 4 banger.
I have to many mods to post here.
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Harb
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Re: Internal engine mods

Postby Harb » Wed Mar 04, 2009 8:23 pm

95Racer wrote:
07red650 wrote:It all depends what you accept as a streetable engine...Have a look here to see how far you can take it: Ninja 650R engine making over 95HP


That is e-p-i-c. There's now a little voice in the back of my head saying "Screw buying a new bike next year, do THAT to yours for the ultimate sleeper". But something tells me it's not really...practical :p
95Racer
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Re: Internal engine mods

Postby 95Racer » Thu Mar 05, 2009 12:36 am

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Phenix_Rider
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Re: Internal engine mods

Postby Phenix_Rider » Thu Mar 05, 2009 6:46 am

That is definitely not a streetable engine, and there's no way the average rider could afford to do that much custom work. Lightweight generator is fine on the track- you're not running headlights, tail light, brake light, and horn, plus any heated gear/grips, or alarms. Increased compression ratio means race gas is required. An extremely quick revving engine is bad for all but the most experienced riders (which most 650 riders are NOT).

We won’t disclose the exact engine specification as you may understand, but the list of modifications includes:

- massively lightened and balanced crankshaft with altered balance factor
- replacement of balance shaft with straight shaft to retain water pump drive
- reworked and balanced pistons and conrods
- reshaped combustion chamber
- increased compression ratio
- flow optimized intake and exhaust tracts
- custom ground cams with increased lift and duration
- shortened crank with minimal flywheel
- lightweight race generator
- custom airbox and straight-through, ram-air intake
- custom exhaust with seperate pipes and common silencer
- modified injection system, bellmouths and larger throttle body diameter
- and a few other things like aftermarket ECU with raised RPM limit and launch control

In addition to the obvious increase in power and torque the engine is also 8.8 kg lighter and now weighs 43.2 kg. The engine revs up incredibily quickly (and down!). The throttle response is amazing. Idle is 2300 RPM and while the vibrations has naturally increased due to the elimination of the balance shaft, they are not excessive and the chassis doesn’t seem to get too upset. The tubular steel chassis helps, I suppose.
95Racer
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Re: Internal engine mods

Postby 95Racer » Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:09 am

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djrussell
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Re: Internal engine mods

Postby djrussell » Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:35 am

95Racer wrote:
djrussell wrote:i'd be really interested to see the power curve though. 95racer?


It's in my blog: Dyno results.


ho-ly crap! that looks like it would trounce a 600cc in everything but peak HP. i think i'm in love. :cool
95Racer
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Re: Internal engine mods

Postby 95Racer » Thu Mar 05, 2009 12:18 pm

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williamr
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Re: Internal engine mods

Postby williamr » Fri Mar 06, 2009 7:33 am

95Racer wrote:
07red650 wrote:.... An easy way to raise compression ratio to right around 12:1 is to remove the cylinder base gasket. Since you are able to work on the engine, this is a no cost upgrade. With the stock cams, you won't have any valve clearance issues either.

.

This will bring the valves closer to the pistons. It isn't very much (and neither is the increase in CR) and should be OK, but it's safer to check before hitting high revs.

Rob
95Racer
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Re: Internal engine mods

Postby 95Racer » Fri Mar 06, 2009 7:37 am

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07red650
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Re: Internal engine mods

Postby 07red650 » Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:57 pm

95Racer wrote:No point in putting stronger valve springs with stock cams. It just robs power.


I miss-read your first reply and blog and thought that you had found some valve bounce on the stock cams. After going back and reading it again I see that I was mistaken. I was asking about the Ti valves to solve the bounce instead of the heavier springs, since I know that heavy springs do a number on the seats and valves if they arent hard enough. But thats a moot point if there's no bounce with stock cams. Glad to hear there is plenty of material to work with in the ports. I've seen some castings that were total crap and you'd punch right through them if you weren't careful. For now, in the interest of time, I think I'm just going to go with smoothing and port matching the head and a Versys cam swap. That should wake it up a bit and make this season a little more fun. It's a pretty safe bet that when next winter rolls around, I'll be starting early and going for a more agressive build. :cool

2007 Ninja 650R - Passion Red
Mods so far:
Custom muffler, DNA air filter, airbox baffles removed, reflective wheel stripes, Woodcraft spools, custom chain guard

Still on the wish list:
Ermax undertail, Ermax rear hugger, frame sliders, Hindle Header
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gr33nninja
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Re: Internal engine mods

Postby gr33nninja » Thu Jun 25, 2009 1:27 pm

"Nobody who rides a sportbike calls them crotch rockets. It's like a harley rider saying he rides a gay dressed-up pirate machine." GOOSE
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coop
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Re: Internal engine mods

Postby coop » Thu Jun 25, 2009 4:06 pm

wonder why 95racer edited all of his posts
07 650r: Bruce Fab slip on, Race Tech GVE/Springs, BRP clutch springs, -1 front sprocket, BRP air box mod, Sport Bars 2.0, DIY fender elim. DIY CBR 600rr rearsets
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BRP
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Re: Internal engine mods

Postby BRP » Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:38 pm

coop wrote:wonder why 95racer edited all of his posts

Best I can tell, he's pissed off that I sold a stator to a forum member,
in the US, when he was also working a deal for one he had.
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Apollo
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Re: Internal engine mods

Postby Apollo » Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:32 am

On your own forum, how dare you?

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